Sumaya Omar  0:00  

My name is Sumaya Omar. I'm 17 years old, and I'm an A-level student and I study politics, English literature and history. On the 27th of September 2023, as part of the Knowledge is Power Program at B 6/6 Form College, in collaboration with Weyland McKenzie Witter, we held a session at the Marx Memorial Library in Clerkenwell, East London to explore their fascinating Paul Robeson collection and resources. Led and guided by Weyland, they anticipated a deep dive into the life and legacy of this remarkable figure. Paul Robeson, I wrote this review of the session.

Meirian Jump  0:34  

My name is Meirian Jump the director of the Marx Memorial Library, and we're sat here in the marks, more library and workers, school name hall here at 37 A Clerkenwell Green. It's a unique place crammed full of often untold histories. We've got three stories here in our listed building containing about 50,000 books and pamphlets and manuscripts which tell the stories of workers and activists campaigning for a better world in all sorts of different ways. ]

Weyland McKenzie - Witter  1:16  

Why does the Marx Memorial Library have a collection on Paul Robeson.

Meirian Jump  1:23  

Well, Paul Robeson was an enormous figure of the 20th century who whose activism spans so many of the themes that I just mentioned. So while we do have a collection specifically on Robeson, like his work and activism, it, it kind of echoes throughout lots of the themes and different collections in the building. 

Sumaya Omar  1:47  

For centuries, black individuals have been overshadowed by damaging stereotypes and sadly, often by members of this community itself. Within this dynamic labyrinth, the story of Paul Robeson emerges as a reminder of the challenges black individuals have faced worldwide. American-born, Robeson's career traversed continents as far as Europe, indicating the capacity for anyone to excel, regardless of their race and background, redefining what it meant to be an African American to the world. As we investigate Paul's life, we will confront the fact that oppression is compound. The term compound oppression refers to the intersection of multiple forms of discrimination, such as racial, economic and social, and we need to address not only external causes but also the narratives within. 

Meirian Jump  2:28  

So on these three tables, we've got lots of documents from our archives on Paul Robeson, obviously, most of them are part of the archive of his biographer, Marie Seaton, who, obviously, in the course of her research, gathered lots of material on Robeson. I won't say too much, because I think the whole point is that we want you to find out more about Robeson through looking at these original documents. But there are three broad themes, which I think you can uncover for yourself. And we've also got some questions out which will help prompt some discussion. But I think the idea is it's great if you look at take the time to look at each of the tables, because there's a lot.  

Sumaya Omar  3:04  

the triumphs of Paul Robeson. Paul Roberson was born in 1898 in Princeton, New Jersey, USA, to the formerly enslaved and escaped Rev. William D. Roberson. Paul Roberson was proud of his heritage and deeply respected his father, often speaking about the resilience and impact of growing up with a father who had overcome tremendous adversity. He attended Rutgers University in New Jersey on a scholarship becoming a two-time all-American football player. 

Gerald Horne  3:30  

Gerald Horne Morris Professor of History and African American Studies, University of Houston, historian, author, activist. He was a star pupil in high school and university. He was a star athlete in high school and university, excelling in various sports, including US football, including basketball, including baseball, a person who excelled as a law student in New York City at Columbia University. 

Sumaya Omar  4:04  

Roberson's early life was characterised by academic and athletic excellence. He later graduated from Columbia Law School, although he chose to pursue a career in the arts. Paul, in fact, got into acting despite his law degree, his interest in acting led him to begin performing in plays and musicals, eventually leading to roles in films and becoming one of the most celebrated actors of his time. Robeson's deep, resonant voice and commanding stage presence earned him traction in theatre and film.

student  4:30  

I feel like I've seen a few of his pictures as well from him doing Othello, because my mum studied that in uni a couple years back, and she had pictures of him, and I didn't realize that was him until I looked at them now, 

Sumaya Omar  4:42  

His portrayal of Othello in the 1942 Broadway production was groundbreaking, as it was one of the first major productions to cast a black actor in the title role. Critic Brooke Atkinson wrote, in every detail, Robeson’s Othello is splendid. He has the physical grandeur and the temperament for the role. It was one of the first times an African American actor played the role in a significant production in the United States, challenging the tradition of white actors in blackface. Robeson's performances were not just artistic triumphs, but also powerful statements against the racial prejudices of his time, empowering others to challenge these norms. 

Gerald Horne  5:17  

I think I said in the book that when acting in Shakespeare's Othello in London. Recall the plot involving Desdemona and his intimate relationship with this melanin-deficient woman. He oftentimes fretted that if he had been acting Othello on the stage in New York, for example, someone would have leaped from the audience and rushed him and tried to choke him because of the sheer intimacies in this fictional plot with Desdemona, 

Student  5:56  

it is a bit weird that he has to pay off fellow because, like, I know what happens At the end, and it's just like, it doesn't really show, like a good like point on how black people are. 

Weyland McKenzie - Witter 6:07  

Othello was his biggest role. Like he did it all over the western head and took him to Freddie in America, it was like his defining character was Othello.

Gerald Horne  6:19  

So it was as an interpreter of Othello that Robeson rose to prominence. But of course, I think I also mentioned the book his working with the Trinidadian intellectual and writer, C, L, R James on a plot involving the Haitian Revolution and his depiction of Toussaint Louverture.

Christian Hogsberg  6:50  

Christian Hogsberg,  senior lecturer in history School of Humanities and Social Science at the University of Brighton and historian of the Atlantic, Atlantic world, and particularly interested in CLR James. Yeah, so it's 2005 I went up to University of Hull to look through the jock Haston papers. He was a comrade of CLR James from a 1930s period in the Trotskyist movement. And it was, it was there, but yeah, among his papers that there was this file just initially labelled Toussaint Louverture ,

and yeah, when I opened up, it was mate, yeah. It was amazing. This kind of, yeah, manuscript, this whole play script there. And I think what sort of hit me immediately was just, this is the kind of, yeah, never been published. Original play script from a 1930s period, there hadn't been, I don't think, a play directly about the Haitian Revolution performed in Britain for almost 100 years. You've got very strict censorship of a British stage at that time. You can't, you know, there's, you're very limited what you can say politically and so to get around the censorship laws, you have these private societies. So there's this very prestigious private member society called the stage Society, who agree through a contact of CLR James, a friend of his, Marie Seaton, may sort of agree, but they will stage CLR James's play on one condition, if he can get Paul Robeson to star in the title role. Paul Robeson is, it was, you know, hugely famous at this time. He's sort of got rising height of his celebrity, really, fame in America In Britain, this figure coming from the Harlem renaissance. But he's been wanting to always, you know, starring a proper play about the Haitian Revolution. That's been his sort of dream of his for a while. And, you know, in his being, he's reading what he can. He's about, you know, about the Haitian Revolution. And there, when still, our James's script comes to him, and he can see the quality, can see the research and the knowledge that James has, he and obviously the political thing, Robeson's radicalising politically to the left in this period. And so CLR James rapidly with fascism, Great Depression, everything that's going on about time to 30s, like lots of intellectuals. And so, you know, James' kind of essentially a kind of Marxist take on the Haitian Revolution of really appeals to Robeson, and he can see the anti-imperialist elements. And then it, you know, so to get it staged, then you know, which does happen briefly for two performances in 1936 and March. 1936 at the Westminster Theater is extraordinary, because  it's an incredible moment in terms of sort of British theatre history and black British theatre history because it's the first time you have a play performed, written by a black playwright, performed by a Black professional actor, Paul Robeson, on the British stage. So it's a significant thing in terms of Black British history,  significant in terms of...

Gerald Horne  10:06  

He also was an actor in cinema, a number of films, some of which, shall we say, are best forgotten, quite frankly. 

Sumaya Omar  10:20  

The Black artist's dilemma. Now, imagine navigating a career where success often means playing into the very stereotypes that dehumanise you, a dilemma faced by many black artists from the 18th century to the stars of today's entertainment industry. Our Paul Robeson starred in the British film Sanders of the River in 1935. The story is set in colonial Nigeria and centres on the character Bosambo, played by Robeson, for many modern viewers today and contemporary then Sanders of the Rivers was highly troubling due to its simplistic and brutal depiction of African cultures. 

Athian  10:52  

My name is Athian. We're at the Marx Memorial Library. It was basically a group of like year 12 students who are doing a level history, who are learning about their life, legacy, archival material around Paul Robeson's life, contending with his fame, His influence, but also how that relates more broadly towards his cultural output, And gaging people's reactions to some of its like negative elements, and then that was grounded into a conversation about the dynamics and politics of cultural production in contemporary society. 

Sumaya Omar  11:31  

This controversial film reinforces colonialist narratives portraying Africans as needing guidance and control from European colonisers. In one scene, Bosambo is depicted as loyal and subservient to the British coloniser and sings in praise of the colonial ruler. This portrayal starkly opposes Rberson's views on racial equality and self-worth as a Black man. Why would Paul Robeson, a passionate advocate for black rights, participate in a film like Sanders of the river? Several factors come into play. During that era, opportunities for black actors were minimal, and this film offered Robeson a rare chance to take on a leading role. Initially, he believed the project would portray Africans with dignity and respect. However, upon seeing the final cut, he was profoundly disappointed and felt it misrepresented the African experience. He famously stated the final script and the direction followed in the African scenes did not depict the African I know, expressing his deep regret for his involvement in the film. Despite this, the role brought him considerable attention and allowed him to continue his career in an industry with limited opportunities for black actors. 

Weyland McKenzie - Witter 12:32  

So I played the group a clip the introduction of Paul Robeson's film Song of Freedom, and they had quite a visceral reaction to it. 

Athian  12:41  

I think it looked like something that they'd never seen before. Because I think, like you had a reaction that was kind of there was the shock of what they were seeing materially like in the film, and it's like barbaric, backwards depictions of African, Black people. But I think it was also a level of shock that was rooted in them interacting with his life and archival material and understanding his politics and what he represented with now seeing that kind of him playing a role in that depiction. 

Sumaya Omar  13:16  

The perpetuation of stereotypes regarding black individuals as prevalent in modern television and music, even today, with series such as Top Boy, which depicts the lives of residents in a public housing estate in London, focusing on the drug trade and gang violence, this in turn, leads to a normalising of negative ideas about black communities and desensitising them to violence, potentially influencing real-life choices. However, as an audience, we have the power to challenge these portrayals and demand more diverse and accurate representations, young viewers can and do grapple with identity formation, being pressured to conform to the characters portrayals or lifestyles, while the glorification of criminality can shape their aspiration. This progress gives hope for a future where such stereotypes are no longer perpetuated, and where black individuals can be portrayed in a more accurate and empowering light. Paul Robeson and many other black sensations highlight the difficult choices often facing, accepting roles that may perpetuate stereotypes to gain visibility and work, or rejecting such roles and risking a successful or failing career. 

student  14:13  

He seems very hidden from what I can see, and he seemed like very active he was famous as well because he was training an actor in a singer. So maybe because he had, like, a big influence, they didn't want, like him to spread his ideologies. 

Athian  14:27  

Yeah, that's, that's, I think that that point about where different ideologies seen history really good. Did you manage to read anything about McCarthyism? 

Student  14:37  

No, I didn't. is it on that table?

Athian  14:39  

Yeah, that's kind of what connects with what you're saying.

Gerald Horne  14:43  

Well, certainly, Robeson thought that by studying languages and speaking to people in their own tongue, he could form a closer bond with them, which would then serve a political purpose of forging global solidarity across ethnic lines, racial lines, national borders, etc. Of course, he tried to learn the major languages of North America, which include, of course, Spanish and French, French and Quebec, Spanish in the southwest and to a degree, in the Northeast, and increasingly in the Midwest and Chicago as well. And of course, studying African languages as well. So this was part of a political project. It was part of internationalist project. It was part of a philosophical project, insofar as Robeson was a devotee of this idea of workers of the world uniting because they have nothing to lose but their chains. But how could they unite in this tower of Babel where they spoke mutually incomprehensible languages? So by studying languages, he was putting himself forward as a model by which one could overcome these linguistic barriers that served as an obstacle to global and political solidarity. Of course, the UK, particularly in the 1920s and the 1930s was a haven of exile for many anti-colonial leaders such as Jomo Kenyatta, Kenya, such as Kwame Nkrumah, Ghana, such as Norman Manley of Jamaica and Robeson saw himself In solidarity. London was critical to Robeson's political project, and so far as it was, as noted, a locale for anti-colonialism and also a locale for political radicalism. I mentioned CLR James of Trinidad, who spent quite a bit of time in London in the 1930s as well. 

Sumaya Omar  17:26  (Interviewed in 2024)

My name is Sumaya Omar. I'm a 17-year-old A level student. I do history and politics. And yeah, today's day is the 11th of December 2024 and we are in the Marx Memorial Library in Clerkenwell,

Weyland McKenzie - Witter  17:39  

This is the second workshop that I've done at Marx Memorial Library. You were at both. How do you feel like today's session went? 

Sumaya Omar  17:46  

I think today's session went really good. I think that last year it was like the first month of a levels like me being at college, and I was a bit not interested. So I didn't come here with any hopes for anything, but I remember me and me and my friend, we were very shocked at the knowledge that we learned, and It inspired me to go and read up on Paul Robeson. And I think today, there was a lot of connections that I hadn't previously made, and while I was reading it, I noticed a lot. I saw Paul Robeson with a lot of other names that I'm familiar with, and I just learned more. 

Weyland McKenzie - Witter  18:23  

What inspired you to write this essay? 

Sumaya Omar  18:25  

Well, Paul Roberson is, I think, the first Black African American to ever to reach the celebrity like status that he did. And obviously I'm someone who is racialized as black, and when I first learned about him, I was very shocked. I think I was most shocked because we came here knowing nothing, and we kind of had to figure out who he was by looking at the resources that we saw. So we had to learn, we had to teach ourselves who he was. And I remember hearing that his passport was revoked with no prior context, and I was thinking like, whoa. Who is this guy? I need to know more. 

Weyland McKenzie - Witter 19:03  

One thing I noticed after last session was there was a gap in the collection in the shape of Eslanda Robeson. 

Sumaya Omar  19:10  

When I was doing my own research on Paul Roberson, I didn't come across anything about her. And I think that I'm not surprised, as women are often dismissed in history. And I think that I kind of, I think I talked about compound oppression in my article, and how there's like an intersection intersectional aspect of this, like a Black African woman and a Black African man, the woman is more marginalized and faces more oppression. So I think that that's a conversation about misogyny and kind of how we do live in a patriarchy. 

Tionne Parris  19:47  

Hello, I'm Tionne Alliyah Parris. I'm a PhD history student at the University of Hertfordshire. I think I've always been interested in people, but I'm also very interested in, I guess, the ways that history. Kind of touches everything around us. And I think it's really important that we know where we've come from to kind of understand where we're going. And I think especially with Black history in Britain, when I was growing up, I felt like there wasn't an awful lot that I could get to know. So I've always kind of been that curious minded person that wanted to go find out. And Esland Robson is someone that I think is often overshadowed by her husband, because her husband was such a titanic sort of figure in the civil rights struggle. And so I was really interested in getting to know the woman that is kind of hidden in his shadow. She exists in the margins right. She started her life as a scientist. She was a chemistry student, and she ended up working in a lab in New York, and that's where she met Paul Robeson, because she moved there during the Harlem Renaissance, which is an exciting time for young black people in New York. And when they met, I think they kind of spurred each other on. He was, I mean, he's known as that kind of intellectual anyway, he was very interested in learning languages. And Eslanda Robeson is kind of the other side of that, where she was also very interested in different cultures, meeting different people. And one of her kind of first loves, when she was a student, was trying to learn more about Africa as a continent. And I think for her, it was part of, I guess, understanding who she was as an African American, and the kind of heritage that she held within herself. And so she decided to pursue a PhD in anthropology as well. She was a very studious and sort of curious woman. And so she ends up going to Africa by herself with her young son in the 1930s and she goes all across Africa to kind of learn more about African people from African people. So I guess in America as well, there was a lot of racism and kind of stereotyping of African people. And she figured out that, rather than ask people in America how you know how she should perceive Africans, she went for herself and she spoke to African people, and she learned not only about herself, but about, I guess, her heritage that way. 

Weyland McKenzie - Witter 22:05  

Yeah, what could you say about the impact that Eslanda had on Paul Robeson's career, and also like creating the Paul Robeson in which we know ?

Tionne Parris  22:16  

Well, Paul Robeson by himself. He was a lawyer when they met, so he already had an intellectual background, right? But obviously he was very interested in arts and he was interested in language. And I think one of the things I've written before is that Islander Robson was the kind of very scientifically minded, curious kind of investigator, and Paul Robeson was very much a creative and in that way, they kind of balanced each other out, right? So she was the very serious, studious person, and he was kind of a fun, loving person. And yeah, they balanced each other out in that way. I think, I do think that she had a big impact on his career, obviously, as she as his manager, but also I think he would have done well regardless. You know, I think he was, he was a talented person, he was a driven person. I do think that she pushed him, you know, in ways that maybe we, we would see as like a kind of focus, in way, because he could have gone off and done a million different things because he was still talented. Um, but yeah, I think it was very symbiotic for both of them. But in her later years that I've written this and my later work is that she, she does kind of go off and find her own way. She's interested in traveling. They travel together throughout their lives as well. But Paul is, I think, more interested in, again, learning the languages of different countries, learning the different cultures. and  Elanda Robeson's, very interested in the politics. So in that way, again, they kind of share that, that relationship where they're both learning from each other. So she makes a lot of statements about political things, and then later in his like, he also makes those political statements, right? And so they really support each other and kind of drive each other. 

Sumaya Omar  23:59  

Robeson's career took a massive turn for the worst during the Cold War. His fearless stance against racism in the United States, coupled with his outspoken support for socialist causes, made him a target for government scrutiny. Robeson's journey was not just about fame, it was a relentless fight for justice. In the early 1950s Robeson boldly declared, "the artist, must elect to fight for Freedom or Slavery. I have made my choice I had no alternative." His criticism of systematic racism and his ties to socialist ideals paved the way for increased scrutiny from the FBI and other government agencies. Shockingly, the US State Department revoked his passport in 1950 silencing him on the international stage and isolating him from the global community that had embraced him, however, Robeson remained solid and willful. Concert halls shut their doors to him, and Hollywood turned its back, yet he continued to find ways to reach audiences. With each setback, his resolve only grew stronger. He became a champion for those who were voiceless. His mantra was clear, true freedom could only be achieved through solidarity. The future of the Negro in America is linked with the future of the world. The struggle against oppression was a universal fight. 

Weyland McKenzie - Witter 25:05  

Yeah. How would you describe as London politically?

Tionne Parris  25:10  

So I like to say she was one of the sort of early Pan-Africanists In the US, but she's kind of been overlooked. And the 1930s as I said, she went to Africa, and she again, went with a little nine year olds, just a young young woman and a nine year old went on a boat to Africa by themselves. And she traveled all over. She went to Uganda, she met South Africans, and she wrote about it all in her book called African journey. And it is basically a travel diary, but you can read it as one of the kind of early Pan-Africanist books as well, because she describes the different tribes of people that she meets. She describes meeting colonialists, and the kind of issues that she the challenges she has in her own mind as an African American woman, to kind of speak out against the colonialists, but also, like, kind of toe the line as well, to be like, Well, I'm a guest here. I don't want to do too much, but throughout the book, she's always kind of she's always a supporter of self determination for other African people. And there are moments where you can see that she wants to say more, but she can't quite find her footing to say what she wants to say. But if you follow her political trajectory from the 1930s onwards, she gets much more upfront about these things. She joins a lot of organizations within the US that are supportive of like African self determination, and, of course, African American self determination. She is kind of, I argue, one of the early proponents of like Black Power, before Black Power was a thing, and a lot of the women in that network are so people like Claudia Jones as well, I say, is the kind of early Black Power proponent. So yeah, I think things like that are part of her political trajectory. She's also very much a communist, but she never quite says it, which Paul Robeson also does as well. Like they told that line of being like, well, you'll find me at the rallies, or you'll find me at the meetings, but I'm never gonna say, like, I've got the card, right?

Students  27:01  

he did loads we was reading. Like, a little book about, like, his life. And we've just like, he's done so much, you know, he was honors graduate. He was a lawyer, sang whilst Spain was fighting fascism. And, yeah, he was a lawyer. He was a singer and an actor, singer and actor, yeah, like, range of things. And one person did that

weyland mckenzie  27:24  

because he didn't have Twitter, that's what I'm thinking

Student  27:28  

so right. Oh, yeah, I'd be like, I can write a book?

Student  27:35  

Because I've got my phone in my hand.

Weyland McKenzie - Witter 27:37  

Thats the only thing stopping me 

Students  27:39  

Yeah? Exactly. I'll be like, I'll be a lawyer, singer and actor actually learn how to do things

Students  27:51  

switch my phone off, magic.

Student  27:53  

After looking at him, I think he, he, he was someone who's quite politically active back then and quite well known, but he's not really well known. Now, he's he's compared to other people that are well known. Now he's not really well known.

Weyland McKenzie - Witter 28:09  

 How was it that somebody as famous as Paul Robeson can become relatively unknown today, and by what mechanizations did that occur?

Gerald Horne  28:19  

Well, you have to understand See, part of the problem with the United States and our friends abroad have not done us any favors by pointing to 1776 as this great leap forward for humanity. increasingly, historians, including myself, have pointed to 1776 as a counter revolution that created this counter revolutionary project that then proceeded to demolish Native American sovereignty and oust Britain from captaining the African slave trade. As Britain moved towards abolition, as I said, people have a theory of the case, and so once you establish that the United States, its creation, was this great leap forward for humanity. Anything that's contrary to that theory, then becomes anomalous. But if you see the United States from its inception, that's a counter revolutionary project, then you understand why Robeson had problems, because he was a man of socialist orientation. The problem there is that in 1865 when slavery was abolished in the United States, this was without compensation to the slave owners. Now of course, we talk about reparations to the enslaved, but to the descendants of the enslaved and and the enslaved. But of course, the slave owners felt that they deserve compensation, which of course, they forced on Haiti post 1804 and as I understand it, as late as 2015 London was still paying off the descendants. Of the slave owners from Jamaica, Barbados, etc, by 2015 for example. So Robeson's rise was mostly in London, not in his homeland. And then when he returns to his homeland, he is battered and bludgeoned, because in this land of so called free speech, his proselytizing with regard to socialism was seen as quite dangerous, so obviously he was going to have difficulties in the United States of America only naive or those who are following some sort of theory that doesn't have relationship to reality, would be surprised by that, 

Tionne Parris 30:51  

and both Paul Robeson and Eslanda Robeson have to face off against the government, and are kind of prodded and investigated for their for their activism, and both managed to kind of skirt that line, managed to kind of get away with it. But I think most people remember Paul Robeson and his kind of, if you look online, there's like a speech that he gave to the house UnAmerican Activities Committee. But Eslanda Robeson, as well, had a pretty fiery kind of exchange with senators when she was asked if she was a communist as well. So there are lots of examples of ways in which that she, I guess, was one of the most outspoken women of her generation, but somehow has flown under the radar. So it's a really interesting kind of lineage to follow. 

Matt  31:36  

My name is Matt. I am the archivist and Volunteer Coordinator in Marx Memorial Library. 

Weyland McKenzie - Witter 31:40  

What did you think of today's session? 

Matt  31:43  

I thought it was really good. I thought was a really interesting way of engaging with the archives. I think usually what we do is we present something, we present material and actually doing and then invite people to have a look around the material themselves, and doing that the other way around, so that they didn't know what what they were looking at. It made them approach it as as researchers. We weren't doing the research for them. We weren't guiding them through that they were finding out for themselves, and I thought that was a more kind of realistic idea of what it means to work in an archive. I was quite impressed with a number of people that interrogated them as as source material as well. So, you know, some of the questions were, how do we know where this comes from? Who collected it? Who's the author? Perhaps trying to get at some of the context and perhaps some of the biases that might come from the sources as well. 

Athian  32:46  

The one of the most interesting elements was that it a lot of when they were interacting with the kind of archival material and his level of fame, it felt distant and like, I think, they had to wrap their head around understanding it. But as the conversation progressed, it seemed like the world was still wrapped up in a lot of the same questions and issues and contradictions, and I think they had a sense of that, and they'd and they had wider conversations about like contemporary black culture that felt very relevant towards like the exclusion from American society that that he faced. And I think they were particularly shocked by the idea that like class isn't as maybe, I don't think we touched on this, but maybe class isn't as much of a not that it's a protector in the he pushed the boundaries a lot further than people maybe do now. And I think that example of like, imagine if a black pop star in the UK got his passport taken, got their passport taken. Like, I think that rooted the conversation in contemporary issues. 

Ralph  34:00  

So I'm Ralph Gibson. I'm office manager at marks Memorial Library. I thought it was absolutely remarkable seeing the students engage with the archive materials connected with Robeson, and also, just to see the range of material that we have here in the library, because it's we've got his politics, we've got his stage and film performances. It's quite an extraordinary selection of material.

Weyland McKenzie - Witter 34:24  

 Could you tell me about your personal connection to Paul Robeson? 

Ralph  34:28  

Well, my father met him twice in the when he was in the UK, and has absolutely vivid memories of the sort of emotion that Paul Robeson generated here was somebody, when you mentioned the name Paul Robeson, people have warm feelings here in the UK, I don't know about anywhere else, and that wherever he went, you know, people were desperate to see him, hear him sing. And it's probably difficult for us to understand in a you. In a sort of era of the internet and social media, and how somebody could get so well known that, you know, the merest hint that he was in the area, you know, would bring people on the streets to see, to get, catch a glimpse. And he was such a person in the 30s in Britain, and later on, later onwards. My brother is named after him, and I got brother called Paul, and he was definitely named after Paul Robeson so we've as a family, we sort of followed his his history. You know, I remember some of my earliest memories are listening to Paul Robeson and hearing about his story in the 60s, because, of course, his he has a very it's not a tragic end. But of course, he was fairly ill the latter sort of decade of his life. And so perhaps when he died in 76 there wasn't quite the same impact as somebody who had been in who would have died in full flow, because he was only his, I guess, in his 70s. But of course, he'd been subjected to such stress. So I think the and it's important to remember, you know, the civil rights the key civil rights players pay homage to him, but of course, he's largely forgotten. You know, the other other people get the attention, but Paul was there, as you said, before civil rights was civil rights,

Sumaya Omar  36:27  

my thoughts on island is that I definitely need to read up more about her, and I hope, like next time we ever have a conversation, I can tell you more about her.

Tionne Parris  36:37  

I think that without acknowledging people like Eslanda Robeson we kind of lose the thread of how we've gotten where we are today. So if you think of, I guess, the kind of vitriol that you see against, I guess Black Power legacies today, the way that we talk about communists or socialists or anything like that today, these are all conversations that have already been had. We've been here already. And women like Eslanda Robeson, if you look back at the things that they wrote in the 1950s 1940s these issues have already been discussed in detail, and the ways in which we can organize against those kinds of things as well have already been tried. And there's lots that we can learn from the past. And I think that in this sort of current moment as well, it is important to revisit these women, because just because they've been forgotten doesn't mean that they didn't have useful things to say or things that we can use. And I think that's the main thing. One of the interesting things that I would flag up about Eslanda Robeson that I think I've touched on, but is her internationalism? I think it's something that could be, something that we could we could focus on a bit more, but that's the case for a lot of women in this network, like Claudia Jones as well. The internationalism of these women is something that I think in our modern day, that we could really benefit from focusing on, mainly because I think in our sort of current deal, everyone tends to kind of stay in their own bubble, right? They're worried about their own situation, or they're concerned with things that only directly touch them, right? And I think as things in the world get more and more unstable, it's, it's they're a good example to remember as women who were consistently not only worried about themselves, but worried about people who they may never meet in other countries, but as part of being a human right is to have those connections and that empathy and that understanding with people who are in situations that are very different from yours, but are still important to to kind of be aware of. I think when we lose that perspective and that kind of and we have that disconnect with other people in the world. It leads to kind of, Idon't know, a kind of cruelty and an uncaring kind of attitude that I think is not, there's not a good thing to be as a human. And I think again, all these, all these women have very humanistic politics and humanistic I likes that not only are just about you know, black people, but people all over the world that they they were interested in all oppressed people, whatever that means to someone, whoever oppressed means to you. It's important to care about things more than yourself or whoever's in your neighborhood. It's important to be a citizen of the world.

Sumaya Omar  39:21  

Paul Robeson’s legacy is a powerful reminder that the battle for equality is ongoing. It requires the courage of individuals at Robeson who are willing to speak out and stand tall, regardless of the cost his life and work serve as a beacon inspiring us to continue the fight for justice and equality.